#it just shows in different ways and is for different reasons in my opinion
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writing-for-life · 1 day ago
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@embervoices , I had to put this in a reblog because it got too long for the comments (brevity is not my forte 🤣):
Yes yes yes! I’ve got several metas that riff on exactly the points you mention, also Desire not being the straightforward villain so many think they are; you’ll find them all in my meta-library:
(please don’t feel you need to read them though)
Or rather: If we look at the Endless conceptually instead of seeing them solely as, well, “not human but still people”, we get to a deeper meaning that will otherwise stay inaccessible. It starts with *when* Desire and Despair first enter the scene in the main run (right after The Sound of her Wings, when Dream… well, hears the sound of her wings 😩). The “big sister sets his head straight” is a valid surface reading of #8, but it’s also just that—a surface reading.
You can’t love and be close to Death if you don’t feel drawn to death.
Death can’t advise you without also being her function. She *is* death. The literal thing. And I’ll never tire of saying it, because every time he listens to her in the whole run, he gets closer to her in the real sense.
And another unpopular opinion: When NG coined the pithy phrase that one must change or die, and that Morpheus made his choice, he didn’t mean he just chose death (even if a felt 80% of people seem to read it like that, but that might just be what I see on my feed—other people’s mileage might vary). They were never to be read as mutually exclusive—it was always both. Because metaphorically, something needs to die to change—a viewpoint, a habit, a set of beliefs. And yet, it doesn’t entirely disappear. That’s exactly what happens—omnia mutantur, nihil interit. And Dream is the Prince of Stories—of course he relates to everything via a narrative *he* spins (he can deny it all he wants).
And yes, you can absolutely desire death—it’s so poignant that we meet Desire and Despair for the first time in #10, and also that they show as the twins on this occasion.
And then there is Brief Lives, when Desire (which is *also* a life force, and that’s important contextually in several arcs) actively pulls out of the scheming in more than one way: Dream even says, verbatim, he has no desire to “do this”, when he usually avoids even the word like the plague (and if he hadn’t done it, the ending might have been different, but that would have also been totally past the point). But the influence of his other siblings, or rather how he relates to them, is far more devastating in that moment. And while they all try as siblings, they are also their function. And in their function, they are NOT helping—again, it’s so obvious if we just look at when and how they show up for him:
Delirium made him go on the trip to find Destruction, Death told him off and made him change his mind when he had already abandoned the plan, Destiny advised him but also didn’t because he is what *must* happen either way, and Despair only showed up for him after Orpheus’ death.
Funnily enough, Desire, despite all their scheming, was always the only one who saved his ass (maybe not always for the most unselfish reasons, but they did it anyway). Not just once. Several times over. Overture is all I’ll say (during the actual events of Overture, but also in the flashback to Alianora’s story).
It’s all incredibly clever and heartbreaking at once…
”But He Loved, He Should Have Been Forgiven”
About Free Will, Responsibility and Agency: Lucifer and Dream as Foils
Did I finally jump on the Lucidream/Dreamingstar bandwagon? No, don’t panic (or be eternally disappointed 🤣), because that quote is actually from “Murder Mysteries”, a short story that also exists in comic form (drawn by P. Craig Russell). And while it isn’t officially part of the Sandman Universe (or even DC), I always saw it as somewhat of a blueprint of how NG (re)imagined Lucifer’s Fall. There is enough in Lucifer’s characterisation in the Sandman that makes it quite plausible as a sort of backstory, especially since it was written when the Sandman was still in full swing. But more about that later…
I’ve long wanted to write a meta about Lucifer and Dream as narrative foils, and since I’ve finally started clearing out my drafts, this was a good one to do right now because we are currently discussing “A Hope in Hell” in our community (join us!). Although I have to admit that this one is rather about what transpires when Lucifer decides to abandon their realm in Season of Mists...
When Lucifer learns of Dream's impending return to Hell to finally release Nada, it solidifies their own resolve to leave (I use they/them pronouns because of the show although comics!Lucifer is male presenting apart from the plumbing and also referred to as he/him). By the time Dream arrives, Hell is nearly deserted, with Lucifer basically expelling its last inhabitants. Lucifer tells Dream they rebelled long ago, and that they are not willing to “pay for that one action” anymore. And the most profound truth they share with Dream is the nature of ultimate freedom—the freedom to leave. This is also brought up many issues later, when Lucifer says to Delirium, "I told him, you know. I told him years ago… I told him that I owed him much for having given me the impetus to go. I told him there was always freedom, even the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave. You don't have to stay anywhere forever.”
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And that’s just… ouch. Not just because it so clearly shows that Morpheus also could have left had he just chosen to (then again, he wouldn’t be Morpheus if he had, and even more “then again”: he did in certain ways), but also because we generally see Lucifer as an antagonistic force. But here, they express something akin to gratefulness. And maybe even a hint of regret that Morpheus didn’t also choose the same way. They feel almost sorry for him (my guess is they actually do, and I can never forget their face at The Wake). But what do you do if even freedom feels like a cage?
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All of this ties in neatly with the crucial truth about Hell Lucifer reveals: People are there because they choose to be (and that Hell doesn’t need to be a physical place: We can make our own—any place, even in our own minds).
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...this is where you wanted to be.
Lucifer explains to Dream:
"Why do they blame me for all their little failings? They use my name as if I spend my entire day sitting on their shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive. 'The Devil made me do it.' I have never made one of them do anything. Never. They live their own tiny lives. I do not live their lives for them.”
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He continues, “and then they die, and they come here (having transgressed against what they believed to be right), and expect us to fulfil their desire for pain and retribution. I don't make them come here. They talk of me going around and buying souls, like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? No.
They belong to themselves… they just hate to face up to it.”
Which brings me to one of the most important messages (one of many) of the Sandman: People must take responsibility (and in this particular case not only for their lives but also for their afterlives, which is also a recurring theme). Each person's soul is their own, and no one can take that away. Paradoxically (or maybe not), as Lucifer abandons their own responsibilities, they urge people to take responsibility for themselves: You can drop said responsibilities, with all that entails, as long as you also take responsibility for the fallout.
So what about the wider question of free will then?
Let’s look at Lucifer's rebellion and fall for that, because both raise a lot of questions. Dream tells Lucifer that he remembers them as passionate, and Lucifer responds, “I cared about so many things. I suppose that was why everything began to go wrong. You know… I still wonder how much of it He planned. How much of it He knew in advance. I thought I was rebelling. I thought I was defying His rule. No… I was merely fulfilling another tiny segment of His great and powerful plan.”
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And this brings me right to NG’s short story “Murder Mysteries”, which isn’t really officially part of the Sandman Universe, but also… it totally is 🤣. In it, pre-fall Lucifer witnesses the destruction of an angel who killed another angel they loved. Raguel (the angel formerly tasked with said destruction who now walks on earth, coincidentally mentioned in the panel above as one who might also have rebelled) narrates, “‘That was not right. That was not just.’ Perhaps Saraquael was the first to love, but Lucifer was the first to shed tears."
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Later, it is revealed that God orchestrated this situation to push Lucifer towards rebellion. God needed an adversary to run Hell and says, “Lucifer must brood on the unfairness of Saraquael's destruction. And that—amongst other things—will precipitate him into certain actions. Poor sweet Lucifer. His way will be the hardest of all my children; for there is a part he must play in the drama that is to come, and it is a grand role.”
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Lucifer was basically set up by God, and this somewhat revisionist interpretation of their rebellion and fall opens up larger questions about free will, agency and destiny.
Because although Lucifer's actions were influenced by God, they still carried them out and are therefore fully responsible for them. And by choosing to abandon Hell, Lucifer was taking responsibility for their own life. They faced a choice: remain in Hell as a shadow of their former self, or move on and make peace.
This fragile peace is illustrated at the end of "A Season of Mists," when Lucifer and an old man are conversing on a beach. The old man, despite having lost everyone he loved, remarks that any God who can create such beautiful sunsets couldn't be all bad. After the man leaves, Lucifer admits (basically to God), “He's got a point. The sunsets are bloody marvelous, you old bastard. Satisfied?”
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And in a way, even Lucifer comes to terms with their past once they take responsibility for it.
In a way, this mirrors Dream’s arc to a tee. One could certainly argue that he was set on his path by forces outwith his control: Whatever had to happen in cosmic terms was always bigger than Dream. The Fates also held a grudge against him and Orpheus, for more than one reason. Orpheus did make the Furies cry, and they never forgave him for that. Crucially though, he was also responsible for his own actions and carried them out. Only that Dream’s choice was ultimately a different one—or was it truly? Because what is the exact definition of “walking away”? He certainly did not abandon his realm like Lucifer because he ensured it was taken care of. There is no devil-may-care (no pun intended) attitude, because even when choosing death, Morpheus does care about his realm and the dreamers. Deeply.
It is the sole reason why the ending we get is the ending we get, and why we have Daniel as Dream in the end. And while Lucifer takes responsibility for their own life, Morpheus takes responsibility for his own death. But both Lucifer and Morpheus faced a choice: remain on their paths as shadows of their former selves, or move on and make peace. And both chose the latter.
And one takeaway for us, as the readers, might be that if we find ourselves in an intolerable situation, we can always walk away, even if the price may be high. This brings us back to the theme of freedom:
The price of freedom is taking responsibility for our lives, even if we haven't been fully in control of them. The freedom to walk away might not be the ultimate freedom, as Lucifer suggests, but it is significant.
Free will in the Sandman is a topic of debate, and I tangentially wrote about it before:
Destiny carries a book that contains everything that will happen to us, all there was, is and will be. Most of all though, it contains what must happen. One could say that in this universe, there is a strong element of predestination involved. However, complaining about a lack of free will and just pointing towards Destiny’s book also misses the point:
In the end, our lives are always our own (which is mentioned several times, directly or in a roundabout way: in Façade, in Song of Orpheus, in Brief Lives, in The Kindly Ones, in The Wake).
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Your life and your death are your own
Some of us might have more to overcome than others, but the sooner we accept our unique challenges (which is not the same as being passive), the more we will focus on what we can change—or what we can meet with forgiveness and (self-)compassion.
Destiny and freedom as opposite sides of the coin matter far less than what we do with them…
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ms-dead-inside · 1 day ago
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WHY IZUKU BEING BORN QUIRKLESS IS A POINT FOR DAD FOR ONE:
Now, I'm not saying that I'm a die-hard DFO believer. I think that the theory is fun, and as a joke, I told my friend that if Izuku's father wasn't introduced by the end of the manga then DFO was officially canon by process of elimination. I'm just here to give my opinion about one of the main points people claim disproves DFO: Izuku being born quirkless. I would argue that Izuku being born quirkless, rather than having his quirk stolen as an infant, gives more credibility to the DFO theory.
For starters, when Izuku is told he in the first episode by the doctor (who is obviously AFO's doctor) that he's quirkless and is shown the x-ray of his foot, the doctor says a line (and I'm paraphrasing here) about how "it was virtually unheard of for a child born from two fourth-generation quirk users to be quirkless." The doctor could potentially be lying, but that is very unlikely. Even if he's evil, there's no reason for him to lie in that scenario: Quirks have been around for over a century by then, and lying about something that could be so easily disproven would be moronic.
So, with the belief that he was telling the truth, then it gives more insight into how quirks work. Quirks, in some way, shape, or form, are genetic. It's why quirk marriages were a thing. It's why Katsuki was the unbelievably lucky mix of both his parents' quirks, allowing him to make explosions. It's why Tsuyu's whole family looks froglike. Quirks aren't magically bestowed upon people like Celestia with visions: it's passed down genetically. Quirks are formed from a genetic mutation. This means that based on what the doctor said, quirks are a dominant allele.
To give a basic recap in biology: each gene has two alleles, one from each parent. Genes are what give you your appearance and more: whether your eyes are blue or brown. If you'll be blonde, brunette, or end up as a redhead. If you are more susceptible to different health problems like stroke or Alzheimer's. Alleles, on the other hand, can be either "dominant" or "recessive." "Dominant" alleles need only one parent to transfer it to the child for the trait to show up. "Recessive" alleles, on the other hand, require the allele from both parents to show up in the child. For example, curly hair is dominant over straight hair. If you use 'A' to describe the allele for curly hair and 'a' to describe the allele for straight hair, then it could be looked at as this:
AA= curly hair
Aa= curly hair (dominant allele present)
aa= straight hair (both recessive alleles present)
This means that quirks show up when through a dominant allele. The mention of "fourth-generation quirk users" implies that two quirked parents can give birth to a quirkless individual. That wouldn't be possible if quirks were a recessive allele. Therefore, if both of Izuku's parents were fourth-generation, then it is technically possible for Izuku's ancestors to have passed on the recessive quirklessness through the generations. And Izuku just happened to be the unlucky son of a gun who lost the genetic lottery.
But do you know what this means? It means that it doesn't disprove DFO in the slightest. In fact, having a parent who is a first-generation quirk user adds to the credibility. Canon shows that AFO was the first person who had a quirk. While Izuku is still unlucky on his mother's side of the genetic lottery, having a dad who automatically has a recessive allele makes his quirklessness much more likely.
In conclusion: Izuku being born quirkless just adds to the Dad for one theory. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
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tennessoui · 8 months ago
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like. one thing that is Essential to any Obi-Wan dynamic To Me is that Obi-Wan is Not a kid person, nor does he particularly like or understand kids much(an exception is made for Anakin’s kids however, bc they’re anakins, and anakin probably had baby fever from the age of Baby), and i feel like u are particularly good at translating that vibe? like Obi-Wan with any partner he has: no i’d prefer to be childfree/any children will be an accident, something i do to fulfill expectations meanwhile Obi-Wan with anakin: how can I get more skywalkers? kidnapping?
ooo this is fun, I think my own ideas of obi-wan with children lean more towards ambivalence and bewilderment. he’s not a natural caregiver, but he has read all the parenting books within two days of getting settled with a child. He would not seek them out and doesn’t particularly want them or knows how to translate the care he feels towards them into something they’d understand, but he’s not so bad with children that they’re afraid or discomforted around him. He’s read the books. He’s studied for this 🫡
meanwhile anakin also does not strike me as a natural caregiver either but he’s stressed about it. He hasn’t read the books because he has a confidence thing going on about being good with children but that doesn’t make him actually good with children and the gulf between expectation and reality when he’s around kids stresses him out
when it comes to skywalker’s kids, has obi-wan ever had to once ask for a Skywalker to enter his life?? I imagine his thoughts are less along the lines of “how do I get more of these little guys? should I kidnap them?” and more along the lines of “I will just stand out in the universe with my arms open palms up and a Skywalker will be deposited within 2-5 business days”
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risingsunresistance · 6 months ago
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twitter is entering their "rts > likes" phase now that likes are private after they spent years calling us ungrateful for being demotivated by ratios lmao
#man fuck yall just support artists you enjoy#dont attack people who dont rb/rt your art (hell they might even have it scheduled) but also dont constantly demand ''content'' from people#ESPECIALLY without telling them that you appreciate the effort they put in to show you cool things they made for free#you should've been rt'ing/rb'ing from the START 😒 just show people you care!#im just waiting to scroll through post after post of ppl calling out ''entitled artists'' lmao#btw my opinion on the whole thing is painfully neutral if you couldnt tell#i dont think you should care that much about numbers and ppl take it wayyyyyy too far#throwback to that one guy who personally @ everyone who didnt reblog their art that was CRAZY. i would straight up report you KJFGHKG#i also understand and have personally experienced how much engagement can change your mood#a simple ''i love this!'' can make someone's day. it's not hard to understand why ppl like engagement#when they make post after post without so much as a little tag they dont care about sharing anymore#the fact that people call that ''entitlement'' is also crazy#i have a lot of drawings i havent posted or just left nonrebloggable bc it really doesnt make a difference lmao#the only ones i leave rebloggable are the ones that i Know will do well and get attention. like the little pig redraw#if it's cute or funny it gets positive attention. anything else is shit on here lmao#it's just not as fun to share. it either leads to no engagement or negative engagement#would rather have nothing than something rude so whatever#some ppl say it's always been like this but no it absolutely was not always like this#idk what exactly caused the change. probably a lot of factors#could even just be the fandoms i hang around in! but considering i've seen the same sentiment from a bunch of ppl i doubt it's that#the best solution to no engagement is to just make friends and have fun#but 90% of the internet is hostile and negative and rude for no fucking reason#when i unfollowed someone on my old public twitter and they @ me over it. damn i dont know why but NOW i know why 😭#this post has gone way off course im just ranting at this point. i havent talked in a while hi how have you guys been#work was a lot yesterday and today is too slow (im not at work im just going crazy in my house)#(and i cant leave my house bc there's construction blocking the road someone save me)#chat
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kuvirasbitch · 13 hours ago
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thank you for the response!! i was finding that a lot of fans takes on twitter were based in expectation bias when their headcannons were not fulfilled. in other words, certain criticisms didn’t come from a place of objectivity and dissecting the story, but from a place of things not going the way they wanted after being knee deep in fanfics for 3 years. so i truly appreciate and really agree with your takes.
i think the show would have really benefited from a third season, or at the very least another act. i understand the writers want to explore other parts of the league universe but it felt unfair to rush this plot and these characters to get there. lack of commitment to the characters and their stories couldn’t be more true.
caitlyn’s arc HURT. she was such a likeable character in s1 and she feels totally different this season. i can see how some of her redemption is cultivated through actions but i don’t think it was nearly enough. she owed vi an apology and their needed to be very obvious remorse. there wasn’t nearly enough for the scale of her actions in acts 1/2. to me, caitlyn’s line to jinx “no amount of good dead’s can ever undo our crimes” kind of feels like the writers wrote that line to excuse themselves from having to write anything that would actually redeem her. don’t even get me started on her inability to see how wrong it was to push the enforcer role on vi… any previous anti classist/anti police brutality messaging from s1 were not addressed at all in s2. they turned the piltover/zaun conflict into a both sides thing where instead caitlyn’s redemption could have been a really great time to highlight and talk about those issues again this season.
i agree on all fronts about vi. her relationship with both caitlyn and jinx was handled so poorly i don’t even know where to start. the writers totally lost sight of the plot (two sisters) and totally neglected the aspects that made caitvi so special. their trust and communication and willingness to learn and understand is what drove the story forward and served as a way highlight the piltover/zaun injustices. i was shocked by vi becoming an enforcer, but her letting cait gas the undercity with no objections was such a betrayal to her and EVERYTHING her character stands for. we finally had a mainstream butch character who is just knocked down time and time again. vi loves hard and protects her family and to me it ultimately felt like she was punished for having too big of a heart. i wish they treated her character more tenderly, and you’re right, more agency would have been a really great way to do that.
i feel the same about jinx. her character was mistreated and wasn’t handled with the care she deserved. i thought we may be getting somewhere with isha and her stepping into the role zaun needs her in. but it was torn away just as quickly as it was given to us and i can’t really think of a reason why this benefited the story?
a lengthy reply on my part as well but i really appreciate your opinion and thoughts!
as soon as i finished s2 of arcane i knew i wanted to hear your takes on it. any opinions as to how they handled caitlyn’s arc, vi’s story, and the development of s2? i would love to hear anything you have to say about this season!!
also - the end of this season has me scouring Ao3 for some fics to fill the void. have you had any recent one shot or fic ideas now that the show has ended? i’ve been dying for a hurt/comfort and really soft sex type of story for cait and vi. maybe something where cait is taking care of vi after the events of 206? lord knows they could both use the comfort and vi deserves to be loved and taken care of. i know you would write that beautifully.
or if you have any recs for fics along those lines? 👀
as always, thanks for your incredible work both inside and outside of fandoms! love hearing from you! <3
Omg hiii! I appreciate that you care what I think haha!
Let me preface this by saying that the criticisms I have for the writing of s2 does not take away the love I have for this show and what it's done for animation as a medium.
Now, with that said...
S2 was a mess.
I said this on twitter, but I think the writers had a lot of ambition — too much ambition — for the amount of episodes they had to wrap this story up cohesively. This AMAZING show suffered because of corporate greed and not having enough time to flesh out character arcs and plots from s1. I think it started off promising. I was really excited to see how they would handle the Zaun/Piltover conflict, Vi's journey toward healing and forgiving herself for her past mistakes, Jinx's descent and then return as a hero, as well as Caitlyn's descent and redemption arc.
Instead we got... that.
There's one word that keeps twirling around in my head: commitment.
The writers lacked commitment (and a diverse writing room) to properly handle the Piltover/Zaun conflict. S1 had such a good starting point, whereas in S2 it's like they diverged from the path and forgot the finish line existed. Sitting Sevika at a table with her oppressors who will most likely tune her out and outvote her on everything is NOT a solution. Why not a complete overhaul of the council? Make it an even split? Instead it's the same people who never gave a fuck in the first place, and Sevika, who helped get half of the population of Zaun hooked on shimmer in the first place. Like what???
They failed to commit to Caitlyn's villain/dictator era. When episode 3 happened, I was skeptical about how they would handle it. And after watching the entire season, I had every right to feel that way. They make her so unapologetic and blasé about gassing Zaunites and letting Ambessa unlawfully arrest people. That's not my Cait from season 1. Does grief change people? Absolutely! But once it settles, you should be able to look back on what you've done and feel remorseful. Cait's lack of remorse was jarring. Her inability to apologize or outwardly own up to everything she did was OOC. You know what could've been the perfect moment for that? When Jayce gathered Piltover and Zaun in that room and she was standing right across from them. Why not have Sevika or Scar call her ass out and hold her feet to the fire? Lay out the facts of what her grief looked like to the innocent people of Zaun who had nothing to do with it? That would've been the perfect time for her to say something.
They failed to commit to Jinx and her story as a whole. At its core, this show was centered around two sisters growing up impoverished and oppressed, constantly separated, but always finding their way back to each other. Jinx is such a heartbreaking character used for trauma porn. Episode 6 fucked me up so badly but I THOUGHT it would lead to something big for her character. Like her stepping into this unwilling hero role and working with Ekko to lead Zaun into a better future like the one Ekko saw in episode 7. BUT LOL NOPE. Instead she's suicidal and self harming while her sister is fucking the oppressor in a prison cell. DA FUCK?
And lastly they failed Vi's character in every possible way. From putting on the badge in the first place to not exploring the depth of her character. She's basically a passenger in s2. Has no agency. Used as a punching bag (literally). And treated as an afterthought. I'm so pissed. There should've been a lot of conflict in act 1 between her and Cait. You mean to tell me Vi, who HATES enforcers. would willingly let her situationship gas her people? Fuck no. Absolutely not. It does not make sense, narratively speaking. Her ending did not make me hopeful. Even if Jinx is alive and moving on from Vi to "break the cycle" that does nothing for Vi's character. She is without family once again, and I fear it would lead to an unhealthy codependent relationship with Cait. Like she'll never be able to voice opposing thoughts or feelings without fear of Cait leaving her AGAIN.
As for the Caitvi relationship. This is tough. On one hand, I was happy to see a lesbian s*x scene in animation for an awarded television show. But on a heavier hand, it rings hollow after everything I've said. Much like the Piltover/Zaun story, Caitvi had a good starting point in season 1. I did have my issues with it because, as a Black woman, seeing someone oppressed get with a cop does nothing for me. But I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt because I believed the writers knew what they were doing. But I was wrong again. CaitVi is unfortunately one of the weakest points of S2. The writers did not COMMIT to their conflict. It's barely glossed over and then Caitlyn gets rewarded with s*x. And this is why I could never commit to them as a couple. At least not in canon. I liked them in s1 and the idea of what they could've been to each other in s2. And it looks like I'm going to have to find that elsewhere, unfortunately.
Overall, it all comes back to what I said in the beginning: lack of time, a diverse writing room, and corporate greed. I'm disappointed, but unfortunately not surprised. I hope the writers can learn from their mistakes moving forward.
As for fanfiction, I have actually not read any yet! So I don't have any recommendations for you. I need some for myself! I'll get back to you if I find any good ones.
Sorry for the lengthy post! I really just needed to get this all out and I feel so much better.
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gen-is-gone · 10 months ago
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I can't go five minutes in DW fandom without people being just atrociously mean about things that I love with the blissful unawareness of majority mainstream opinion holders that the people they're being mean about are like. In the space with them. And this in a space full of ardent fans of arguably some of the most esoteric obscure side stuff that everyone else disdains or doesn't even know. And I'm having fun for the most part but also like. It's just exhausting, constantly goddamn exhausting.
#this is about moffat and eleven#in case that wasn't clear#megan whines into the empty abyss of cyberspace#i'm not gonna say that Lawrence Miles in particular doesn't have every reason to hate Moffat#or that as an EDA fan first and foremost I don't also side eye the fuck out of a lot of his early arc plots#but Moffat wrote *characters* in a way that no one before or since does#everyone droning on about rtd found family has nothing on 11 and 12 era character relationships#also yeah it is genuinely annoying and upsetting that people are STILL going on and on and on and on about ~bad vibes~ ~misogyny~ whatever#like that's just your opinion man#and I think certain fans would genuinely be shocked to actually acknowledge that some people just straight up disagree with them#and straight up have a different experience with that era of the show#and don't share the opinions that got so saturated with so little pushback that the arguments are by now parodies of themselves#like do you hate eleven's era because you formed that opinion yourself or do you hate eleven's run because hbomb made a video?#do you feel the way you feel because you came to that opinion or because others in fandom 'warned' you about moffat before you started?#also like ngl it just straight up hurts my feelings#it's mean! it's just really mean and I'm tired of getting my feelings hurt in situations that are meant to be fun!#I lived through this ten years ago when I'd watch Dr Who and then get on the internet to talk about it#and every post would be just endless bad faith nitpicking and tearing the episode apart#anyway gonna watch power of the daleks now and remind myself not to engage w nuwho fandom
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13eyond13 · 5 months ago
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#just watched s 2 ep 7 of the vampire show#and these are just some ramblings that hopefully will not offend fans of the show im just trying to articulate my thoughts to myself#i think it was a cool idea to turn their trial into one of the theatrical performances onstage#however im still annoyed at how the domestic violence episode happened and was apparently a real thing#like idk it just ruins the whole vibe in the book of how these characters were living together doing awful things to humans yet#somehow mostly carrying on in civilized peace and not ever directing that violence toward each other for decades on end#this choice messes up the characterizations and relationship dynamics too much for me somehow#also messes up the aesthetics that are a delicate balance between the savage and grotesque and polite and refined#it was important to me that lestat wasnt the one to first cross that line in the books and that claudia was#i feel like kinda the one thing that lestat had going for him in the first book as a standalone story#was that he didnt ever cross certain lines with louis and claudia that the show made him cross there?#he seemed to have a different inner set of rules when it came to what violence he would do to humans and what he would do to them#it's hard to even articulate what kind of shittiness is a dealbreaker in a character or a ship to me#especially when theyre constantly doing stuff like feeding on people to stay alive#but for some reason lestat and louis beating the shit out of each other is just such a nonsense ooc thing to make them do in my opinion#also claudia in the book was valid for what she did to lestat already i thought. i dont see why they had to change or add to the motives#she was turned into a vampire at age 5 and therefore almost purely a vampire in nature and also totally valid in not being happy about it#and in the books lestat made her a vampire on his own after louis fed on her and they did not discuss it beforehand#and he never mentioned rules about a child vampire being forbidden and louis did not beg him to do it. in fact one of the biggest reasons#that louis and claudia decide to turn on lestat is because theyre convinced hes just pretending to know more than he does about vampirism#and either has nothing to teach them or wont ever let them go so they can find out anything for real about their own kind#these changes in the show bother me too but i think im not that good at articulating why#i also feel like as much as book louis's weakness and passiveness and guilt can get frustrating and isn't always interesting to follow#in a way that's kinda one of his more saving graces and most defining traits as a vampire as well - so i dont always know how to feel#about them making his character more powerful and aggressive and involved in things in the show at times?#on one hand i often get frustrated at his moping and indecisiveness and inactivity in the books#and yet on the other hand i find i miss his quieter softer excruciatingly polite book personality when i am watching the show at times too#p#vmpcs
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teamfortresstwo · 6 months ago
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RA shippers are so annoying about Vox man . Like not only would he not fucking say that, neither of the characters you’re shipping would say that either . And I wouldn’t be bothered by it if they PROPERLY TAGGED THEIR SHIT but some people are just fucking incapable of it I guess .
Also! I get the want for your faves to be ooc sometimes but like . You can’t MAKE them ooc and then claim this version to be better than a canon ship because ohhhhh they love eachother so much more when in canon it is literally less intimate than the ship you’re bashing!!!!!! It literally has no basis so you have no leg to stand on!!!!! Stop claiming you’re somehow better for shipping it oh my god!!!!
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brightsout · 2 years ago
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sometimes i hate fandom twitter sm like
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doctorwhoisadhd · 2 years ago
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i didnt used to understand what was so appealing about tragedy but im finally in a real situation where i'm like, what if it could have been different, and i think i get it now
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danger-xylophones · 2 years ago
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I am going feral over the costumes in this show
There's a lot of good things going on and for every criticism I have, I can find something good happening elsewhere
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Rings of Power’s elven clothing & armour - design appreciation
Requested by @klngfili thank you I hope you like these!! ♥
My favorites are easily Elrond’s blue and gold outfit, Arondir’s chestplate and Galadriel’s armour.
rop design team very good job thank you
#the team is doing a wonderful job and I know I wouldn't have such strong emotions about the costumes if they weren't#sort of rant in bound - not really I'm just discussing where I wish they'd gone in a different direction#for context - I am a theatre major who specializes in design (set and light) but I'm doing a costume practicum next semester#i have to discuss stuff like this all the time#I'll admit#I don't particularly like the shapes they chose for gil-galad and elrond#they feel really boxy and structured for the elves#especially when put next to the more flowing outfits we see on galadriel and celebrimbor and even arondir to an extent#although arondir's also pretty boxy#but i think it gets offset by the fact his cloak doesn't hide his body and isn't all bunched up on him#i don't know why - i associate elves with curves and loops with very few straight lines and rigid shapes#I think in the case of gil it's the fault of the literal X over his chest because those sashes???? what are they???#are the same shade (close enough) to his cloak so it looks like |X|#I wish gil's outfit had a contrasting color - like that deep green we see in a lot of other outfits#his outfit confuses me#elrond's it all comes down to the cape and the weird feathers on his shirt#why with the feathers? they look weird and I don't understand the reasoning behind them#and the way his cape drapes just bothers me because again - it turns him into a box#i wish it didn't cover so much of his arm and i wish his cloaks didn't look so heavy#but#contrasting gil - i like his color palette#i don't know#i could probably write a full paper on my feelings about the costumes in this show#because there's a lot of good shit#and i wish i had the opportunity to pick the designers' brains and find out why they chose to do some of these things#like they're not outright bad#i'm aware everything i just said is all my opinion#but i want to know why they did these things
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emeryleewho · 2 years ago
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I used to work for a trade book reviewer where I got paid to review people's books, and one of the rules of that review company is one that I think is just super useful to media analysis as a whole, and that is, we were told never to critique media for what it didn't do but only for what it did.
So, for instance, I couldn't say "this book didn't give its characters strong agency or goals". I instead had to say, "the characters in this book acted in ways that often felt misaligned with their characterization as if they were being pulled by the plot."
I think this is really important because a lot of "critiques" people give, if subverted to address what the book does instead of what it doesn't do, actually read pretty nonsensical. For instance, "none of the characters were unique" becomes "all of the characters read like other characters that exist in other media", which like... okay? That's not really a critique. It's just how fiction works. Or "none of the characters were likeable" becomes "all of the characters, at some point or another, did things that I found disagreeable or annoying" which is literally how every book works?
It also keeps you from holding a book to a standard it never sought to meet. "The world building in this book simply wasn't complex enough" becomes "The world building in this book was very simple", which, yes, good, that can actually be a good thing. Many books aspire to this. It's not actually a negative critique. Or "The stakes weren't very high and the climax didn't really offer any major plot twists or turns" becomes "The stakes were low and and the ending was quite predictable", which, if this is a cute romcom is exactly what I'm looking for.
Not to mention, I think this really helps to deconstruct a lot of the biases we carry into fiction. Characters not having strong agency isn't inherently bad. Characters who react to their surroundings can make a good story, so saying "the characters didn't have enough agency" is kind of weak, but when you flip it to say "the characters acted misaligned from their characterization" we can now see that the *real* problem here isn't that they lacked agency but that this lack of agency is inconsistent with the type of character that they are. a character this strong-willed *should* have more agency even if a weak-willed character might not.
So it's just a really simple way of framing the way I critique books that I think has really helped to show the difference between "this book is bad" and "this book didn't meet my personal preferences", but also, as someone talking about books, I think it helps give other people a clearer idea of what the book actually looks like so they can decide for themselves if it's worth their time.
Update: This is literally just a thought exercise to help you be more intentional with how you critique media. I'm not enforcing this as some divine rule that must be followed any time you have an opinion on fiction, and I'm definitely not saying that you have to structure every single sentence in a review to contain zero negative phrases. I'm just saying that I repurposed a rule we had at that specific reviewer to be a helpful tool to check myself when writing critiques now. If you don't want to use the tool, literally no one (especially not me) can or wants to force you to use it. As with all advice, it is a totally reasonable and normal thing to not have use for every piece of it that exists from random strangers on the internet. Use it to whatever extent it helps you or not at all.
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miraculouslbcnreactions · 2 months ago
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Since you've mentioned Scarlet Lady in one of your posts, what's your opinion on it?
I've mentioned before that I'm a big Scarlet Lady fan, which is the only reason that I'm comfortable answering asks like this one. I don't publicly criticize the content of hobby creators. That's wildly inappropriate! Punch up, not down.
The linked post was a general discussion of the adaptation process and how @zoe-oneesama did a fantastic job, so for this one, I'm just going to do some general gushing because I do actually like praising and enjoying things!
Scarlet Lady's chosen format (comic) allows it to have this wonderful conversation with canon where it can rely on the framework of canon to tell it's own story while also using canon for jokes and meta commentary. This means that Scarlet Lady is about as close as fan content can get to a direct reboot because it's able to have moments like this one from the comic's first post:
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[Image description: Adrien standing in his room after transforming into Chat Noir for the first time. He is beaming and his eyes are shining with excitement as he exclaims, "This is gonna be awesome!"]
A single picture that communicates everything we need to know about Adrien getting his miraculous. When I've done this same thing in fanfic, I had to write out the full scene because that's how novels work. You have to give the full picture. With a comic, you can just quickly acknowledge this thing that we all already know and then move on to the new stuff. A picture really is worth a thousand words! (Or, in my case, more like two thousand...)
This allows Zoe to keep the same akumas that we get in canon without her story feeling like a boring rehash because she can focus on what's different in her version. A novelization of the same content would have to show both the stuff that stays the same and the stuff that changes for it to be coherent. That's a lot less fun to read and write. It's why I basically never revisit canon akumas in my own stuff. It's just too derivative for the written word.
This is one of the big reasons that I loved Scarlet Lady. Because it was able to have that more directly conversation with canon, it was able to take canon and say, "hey, why don't we embrace the tone that you established in season one and retell the story with that vibe?" That's something that I desperately wanted to see, but that is totally unsuited to my chosen artistic form. It couldn't be a novel. It had to be a comic.
If you want to know what a true formula show version of Miraculous would look like, Scarlet Lady is it. It does everything that Miraculous should have done:
Sticks to a lighthearted tone where nothing is ever super serious
Keeps Gabriel entirely unsympathetic
Has slow character development and background hints at a bigger plot as the only serial elements, allowing the individual episodes to be their own story while never feeling incomplete or rushed
Allows characters other than Marinette to shine while keeping Marinette as the clear main character
Makes Adrien narratively important
MAKES THE LOVE SQUARE CUTE SO I CAN ACTUALLY SHIP IT
Understands that Lila and Chloe can't coexist as antagonists
Reverses the love square, which is the best way to tell their story. Yes, I will die on my "love diamond" hill. It's a good hill. Come join me. I'll bring cookies.
I could keep going, but you hopefully get my point. While Scarlet Lady is certainly not the only way to do a formula version of canon, it's proof that a formula version does work! You don't have to go the serious route for Miraculous to be successful.
I want to take some time to gush about the ending, but I don't want to spoil it, so I'll put that gushing under a "read more" in case anyone hasn't seen it. I'll finish out this less spoilerish section with this:
I feel like some people are surprised when they learn that I love Scarlet Lady because - as some of you have probably picked up - it is quite different from my ideal version of canon. I'm not sure why that would stop me from enjoying a thing, though. It's important to remember that our personal ideals are not the only way to tell a good story. There are lots of ways to take what canon gave us and make something wonderful! It's part of the reason that I enjoy being in a fandom.
If I only wanted to see my ideal take on canon, then I'd stick to writing/imagining my own stories. But I don't want that! I like seeing alternate takes, too. Scarlet Lady is one of my personal favorites. It's completely different from anything that I'd ever think to write and that's why I'm so glad that it exists! I like being entertained just as much as I like creating my own entertainment and I don't want to only read stories that look like something I'd write. That's boring!
Spoilers below:
I've mentioned before that there are many, many ways to properly handle Chloe's character and Zoe did such a good job with her take on that! Chloe isn't absolved of all the things she did wrong, but she's also treated as a young woman with the ability to change.
While the comic bares the name of Chloe's alter ego, she was the never the main character. She never went on a journey. The story kept her to her shallow season-one self: a petty brat who just wanted attention. It did this because that's who Chloe was in canon and who Chloe needed to be for the comic to work.
The first time we see any complexity from Chloe is in the comic's final few episodes, which was absolutely the right call for Zoe to make! In a recent post, I talked about how the end of a formula show is the only time when you can break the formula in catastrophic ways and that's what Zoe did. She kept Chloe static until it was time to end the story and that's when the formula breaks. That's when Chloe gets depth because, once she has depth, the formula doesn't work.
That depth is not used to redeem Chloe, but to show us that there's hope for Chloe. That this petty brat who we've been dealing with has some serious issues and needs help. Help that she's going to get far away from the people that she's hurt because her issues aren't an excuse for what she's done. They don't erase the harm that she caused. At the same time, understanding her issues makes us hope that she can be better now and Scarlet Lady took a moment to give us that hope. To show us the START of Chloe's true story.
That is the kind of ending that I have wanted to see in so many properties!!! It was so wonderful to finally get one that did this right. A story that understood that full redemption to the team and damnation to death/suffering are extremes on a scale of possibilities. You don't have to go to extremes! You can fall in the middle and the middle is a perfect, natural place for Chloe to land in this kind of story. Fully redeeming or even fully damning Chloe simply doesn't work in lighthearted formula content. It's too big a lift as canon has already demonstrated.
I also loved Zoe's take on Emilie. I've mentioned that I don't like evil Emilie in part because it makes her revival feel like the start of a new story. She's back and she'd bad, so we have to take her down now! But I don't want that. I want the story to end when Gabriel is stopped. Zoe does this by giving us an Emilie that is another perfect middle ground. She matches canon's uncomfortable implications without feeling like a true villain who is a threat to society.
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corkinavoid · 3 months ago
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DPxDC When You Are Suddenly Dating a Princess (pt. 2)
[<- part 1]
"What do you mean-" Jason starts, but the girl is already tapping her ear briefly - and only now does he notice a tiny comm there. Fuck, he should have known.
"Oscar? I changed my mind, I want to claim something," Jazz says easily, and, after a short pause, "A Tecpatl, the one with the owl. No, it's for personal reasons- You don't have to, but alright." She taps her ear again, and Jason can't help but ask:
"Who's Oscar?" He is not jealous. He is just insanely curious and very confused.
"My bodyguard," Jazz rolls her eyes, "At least he thinks he is. I'd say he is more of a secretary."
That doesn't really explain anything. It actually just adds even more questions - what kind of a magic user needs a bodyguard? or a secretary, for that matter? - but Jason keeps them to himself for now. He is... kind of intrigued now. Jazz said 'claim', not 'buy'. Which might be just a weird word choice, but somehow, Jason thinks it was deliberate.
A bald, black-skinned guy in a black suit and sunglasses - which, seriously, how does he even see a thing in here with those on - makes his way through the crowd and stops in front of Jazz, nodding slightly to her.
"Lady Phantom, I understand you want to make an impression, but using your status for personal matters-"
"Did I ask for your opinion, Oscar?" Jazz's voice doesn't change. It's still pleasant and sweet, and she is still smiling, if just a bit, but there's an unmistakable steel edge to her tone now. Jason feels a light shiver run down his spine. He's seen Jazz in a lot of different situations and circumstances; he's seen her get mad at a librarian who banned some controversial books in the public library, and he's seen her skillfully take down an armed robbery in a shop all by herself, and he's even seen her successfully stare down Killer Croc on one occasion.
Yet, he's never seen her like this, with her chin raised up high and radiating authority like she is the most powerful person in the room.
Also, Lady Phantom?..
"No," Oscar admits after a pause and presses his lips together, "But the Council of Ancients will not be pleased."
"Council of Ancients couldn't care less even if I declared war," Jazz brushes the comment off, and Jason's levels of confusion are growing higher and higher with every word they exchange. Oscar sighs and finally complies:
"Very well, then," he breathes out with a sense of surrender, and then turns his head to Jason just slightly, "Is this an urgent matter, or should I go talk to the auctioneer and the sellers?"
Jazz looks to Jason, raising her eyebrows in question. And, technically, it's not that much of a time crunch now since Jason doesn't have to try and sneak through the security or wait for the auction to start officially. But he feels a bit petty. Also, this man was questioning his girlfriend, which is offensive on many levels in Jason's opinion.
So, he nods, "Urgent."
Oscar's face doesn't change one bit, but Jason has plenty of experience with emotionally inept men who look like they are eternally constipated. He can see the traces of exasperation in Oscar's shoulders.
"Follow me, then," he tells them both, and turns around, headed to the back of the auction rooms. There's security there, but Oscar only shows them some kind of a badge, and they step aside, letting the three of them through. As far as Jason knows, no FBI or CIA agents should have that kind of clearance.
Which finally prompts him to ask the most important question as soon as the doors behind them close and it's only them three going through an empty hallway.
"Who are you?" He asks Jazz, who is still keeping her hand on his elbow. The girl hums, not looking at him, and keeps walking after Oscar.
"Jasmine Fenton," she answers, and, yes, he knows that much. He's seen the files Bruce has on her, but at this point, he is not even sure how much of the info in there was actually true.
"You are in the presence of Jasmine Fenton, Lady of the House Phantom, Princess of Infinite Realms and sister to a King," Oscar supplies, and his voice is... a bit petty. Like he knows Jazz didn't want him to say anything, but he still did just because he could.
Jazz huffs and rolls her eyes, "Yes, that, too."
Jason blinks.
He's heard about Infinite Realms. Mostly rumors through the grapevine of Leaguers, but also from Diana personally - he remembers her saying she is glad about having a truce with them. He didn't listen much since she explained it as the Underworld, the Land of the Dead, so he thought she was talking about some mythology shit. Turns out it wasn't.
But there's a more important thing.
"I'm dating a princess," he says to no one in particular as they come to a stop in front of one of the doors.
"Technically, you'll be treated as my consort if you ever decide to visit," Jazz admits, and Jason is officially out of surprised responses. There's only a limited amount of bafflement he can feel in a day, and he has exhausted the resources.
He is a royal consort of the Underworld princess. Sure, why not.
The room they step into after Oscar puts in some code into the lock is filled with boxes, packages, and crates. Jason looks around - sure, he knew all the prettily displayed artifacts back in the auction room were only replicas, but he didn't expect the originals to be literally just stacked in piles in the back room. Yet, here they are.
Oscar looks around the room and confidently makes his way to one of the shelves on the side, quickly going through the labels on the containers.
"Do you have, like, a crown?" Jason asks because he sucks at small talk. Also because he doesn't know what else he is supposed to ask in this kind of situation. Jazz snorts and leans to him, resting her head on his shoulder.
"Not really. Danny has one, and it looks absolutely badass, with flames on top of it, like the ones you would see in cartoons. I have some tiaras and stuff, but they are just jewelry," she explains, and Jason nods sagely. Just jewelry, alright. Seems like he is simply destined to be surrounded by rich people from all sides.
"How about a castle?"
This gets a sigh out of Jazz, "We used Pariah's - that's the previous King - old one for the coronation ceremony, but mostly, it's just for storage. Both Danny and I live on Earth, and Dani, our little sister, travels a lot. So, I do, and I don't at the same time."
"What about-" Jason starts, but he is cut off by Oscar all but shoving a small box in his hands, "Oh. Do I-" he turns to his girlfriend awkwardly, "Do I have to pay you for it or..."
"No, it's from a dead civilization," she raises her head back and shakes it slightly, but after seeing Jason's frown, she elaborates, "I'm the Princess of the Dead. I can officially claim anything that belongs to the dead as mine."
"It's a law that is supposed to resolve any possible conflicts between the denizens of Infinite Realms and the living," Oscar supplies, his voice disapproving. Alright, makes sense why he said it was not for personal matters, then. Not that it's going to stop Jason, though.
"Like, anything?" He punctuates, and Jazz tilts her head, a sly smile on her lips.
"Sure."
"Lady Phantom," Oscar sighs, tired and chastising, but Jason doesn't plan on robbing the auction. At least not robbing it any more than they already did.
He has a different idea.
"Can you ask Batman for the Robin's suit he has in his cave?"
Jazz blinks, and then her smile turns into a full-on grin.
"Of course."
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@akuworld777
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wilcze-kudly · 4 months ago
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People will go on about how "Katara's story is a tragedy" because she... ended up marrying the guy she loves, having children and grandchildren which she was always excited about and literally becoming a master waterbender and rising to the top of her field as a healer.
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Yes, Katara's story has tragic aspects to it. And there are certainly flaws in how she is written in tlok (Though I will argue that there are actually more issues with how Toph and Zuko are just plopped in there for no reason in later seasons). And her storylines aren't perfect, for example her resolving her trauma around the murder of her mother being more used to prop up Zuko than her own internal turmoil. (Most of TSR is from Zuko's perspective and I hate that actually)
"Katara's story is a tragedy" Why do you have such a hard on for this woman's misery? Let her be happy, man.
You know what gaang girlie's life is an actual onscreen tragedy?
Toph's!
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People will fucking downplay Toph's childhood abuse because she wasn't physically hurt, but her childhood was a never ending carousel of abelism, misogyny, neglect and isolation. The way Toph describes her parent's treatment of her as "pressure and pain" is heartbreaking.
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Toph's only escape was Earth Rumble and earthbending, but despite her skills, she remained the perfect little lady her parents always wanted her to be. She's never known a different life, and she was only able to be her real self in secret.
And when Toph finally opens up to her parents, when she finally lays her real self bare in front of the people who are supposed to love and care for her?
She is met with what may be, in my opinion, the cruellest rejection in the show.
Despite this, even when Toph runs away, she still cares for her parents' approval. Hell, she's even lured into a trap due to her getting a forged letter from her mom and getting excited because it looked like her mom was finally accepting her.
It's also important to note how determined to be self sufficient and to prove herself Toph is. We can especially see this right after she joins the Gaang, where she refuses to participate in splitting with the rest of the group, insisting on "pulling her own weight". This isn't Toph being a brat, or spoilt, this is her wanting to prove that she can handle herself because people have handled and understimated her her entire life.
Eventually, Toph starts to learn to trust the members of the Gaang and this is a step in the right direction. She's literally making friends for the first time in her life I'm so proud of her.
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However, I was genuinely upset when Toph's life changing field trip with Zuko didn't work out. When Toph was trying to connect with Zuko and he blew her off (I'm not blaming him tho they had shit to do), I couldn't help but remember the rejection Toph suffered from Lao.
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Post canon, Toph continues to try and prove herself, starting a metalbending school and training new metalbenders.
She also reconciles with her father. Not before Lao disowns he rmultiple times and calls her a rude, ungrateful thing. And while he eventually comes to understand Toph and cherish her, that type of trauma sticks with you.
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So it's no wonder really that Toph, someone who went her entire childhood seemingly without even speaking to someone her age, would have trouble forming connections. She has children with two different men, neither of which seem to stick around.
Toph tries to do right by her daughters and gives them the freedom she never got. Sadly, the pendulum swung too far to the other side, since it seems that she started to neglect her daughters, which led to them developing a sleugh of issues of their own.
Toph becomes the cheif of police, which kind of makes sense. Republic City was only slowly emerging as an actual metropolis. Toph took on a role as a protector, and probably as a way to prove herself. But as Republic City grew, Toph probably realised that she became something she hated. A cog in the machine, and started to despise her job.
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Searching for a semblance of the freedom and happiness her travels afforded her in her childhood, Toph leaves the city and takes up the life of a hermit in a swamp. She managed to fix her relationship with Suyin to some extent, but still seems reluctant or simply unable to connect with her daughter or grandchildren. Since she apparently hasn't seen Opal, a grown 20 year old woman since she was a little girl.
On the surface old Toph doesn't seem terribly dissimilar to young Toph, still tough and spunky. But she is more jaded, depressed and pessimistic. She comes out to save Suyin from immediate harm and manages to somewhat reconcile with Lin, but then she fucks right back off to the swamp where she seems to literally hide until Wu and Korra straight up force her to come with them.
Toph's story began with her alone and it seems to end with her alone as well. It's a story of a girl who grew up isolated and handled by others, and was woefully unprepared for the real world, which only jaded her further. She lives with the guilt of fucking up her daughters' lives and a belief in the pointlessness of life.
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Toph started off longing to experience the world and ended up willingly isolating herself from it.
If that isn't a tragedy, I'm not sure what is.
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Mind you, this is not the trauma olympics. I'm not saying that Toph has suffered more than Katara or that Katara's trauma is not as valid as Toph's. Katara and Toph's experiences are completely different, Katara being a victim of genocide and war, Toph being a victim of child abuse. I'm just saying that, objectively, Katara had a happier 'ending' than Toph.
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dedalvs · 5 months ago
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My brother and I absolutely cackled after that Aemond and Aegon Valyrian exchange!
I wanted to ask (and I'm terrible at conlangs, so forgive me) what grammar/syntax Aegon is stumbling over here and how to properly say what he intended to? Any why is he making thise mistakes (simply lacking the vocabulary, or rules of the language he hasn’t grasped)?
Let's take a look at it. This is what he said:
Nyke koston... Bēvilus... Sētegon bīlīvāzmi?
The subtitles say this:
"I can... Have to... Make a war?"
Prior to this Aemond is, essentially, showing off. He knows that Aegon has simply not put any time into studying Valyrian (or studying anything). At this stage, Valyrian is no longer spoken by the family on a day-to-day basis—especially as Alicent probably never learned it at all (or if she did, only in a few scattered lessons here and there; not to actually use). In order for either of the boys to gain any kind of fluency in the language, they have to study constantly and find ways to use it. There's simply no daily need for the language—and plenty of reasons not to use it, as very, very few people they'll encounter on a daily basis speak the language.
Now, if we were talking about two random people in Westeros, this wouldn't mean anything. But these are the children of Viserys Targaryen, himself a descendant of Aegon the Conqueror. They brought their family line and their culture with them to Westeros—and, of course, their language. If someone like Alicent Hightower doesn't speak High Valyrian it means nothing. If a Targaryen doesn't speak High Valyrian, though… See, they're supposed to be able to speak Valyrian. Failing to do so carries with it a sense of shame that isn't present for a random person who doesn't speak Valyrian. Aemond knows this. Aegon is annoying him, so he goes poking at that wound.
Aemond could have fed him a short line with an obvious answer to help Aegon out, but instead he threw a whole mess of Valyrian at him. The longer it goes on, the more lost Aegon gets, desperately trying to catch up and figure out what was just said and thereby missing what is being said at that instant. From the whole speech, Aegon probably only figured out that he was being asked a question, and it was something having to do with planning.
So, back to what he says. The beginning student of a language is quite adept at doing a single verb in a present tense sentence. In a discussion like this, though, you're typically saying things like "I think that" or "We should" or "I suggest" or "Perhaps we might", etc. All that stuff that we need to offer opinions, make suggestions, hedge, etc. Much more than simple narration.
Aegon is attempting to do this without a sufficient command of the language. He knows some vocabulary, he knows some grammar, but he simply did not put in the work to actually speak this language. Thus, he has to overcome a lot of Common Tongue (i.e. English) interference.
There are many differences between Valyrian and English, but the biggest one by far is the major word order. In English, the verbs come before the rest of the junk; in Valyrian, they come at the end. And this is how things get all messed up.
In English, you start the sentence saying things like "I think" or "We should" or "It seems". In Valyrian, those things come at the end. If you start with the Valyrian equivalent of "I think", you will quickly realize (presuming you know enough of the grammar) that you're sunk, because once you've said it, the sentence should be done. Thus you get Aegon's false starts.
Starting at the beginning, Aegon says Nyke koston, which is kind of like saying, "I could". But there's nowhere to go. This is how a sentence ends. For example, if he wanted to say, "I could fly to Harrenhal", he would say Harenhalot sōvegon koston—literally "To Harrenhal fly I could". If you're thinking English-ly, you're essentially thinking backwards, and if you simply translate what you're thinking, you'll immediately have nowhere to go. You'll have to take a pause and think about how to get started again. And that's exactly what happens here.
Now, leaving aside that Valyrian is a pro-drop language and starting it off with nyke "I" is unnecessary and makes you look like a beginner, koston isn't bad (I mean, if used sentence-finally). Once he realizes he can't start there, though, he loses confidence. It's those old High Valyrian lessons all over again, and some maester suggesting he hasn't studied. That self-doubt makes his facility with Valyrian worse. This means his chances of recovery are severely hampered.
But onward he presses, and he decides to say "We have to" or "I have to". Now, the problem here is in Valyrian that requires the verb bēvilagon. This verb isn't used in the usual way. Literally it means "to lie on". If you wanted to say "We must mobilize our dragons", you'd say Īlvī zaldrīzī mazannagon īlo bēvilza. That's literally "Our dragons to mobilize us it lies upon". The one who must do something is placed in the genitive and put directly before the verb. If you start with the verb, well, you missed your chance to say who it is that must be doing something—let alone what they must do. Another false start.
It's also worth noting that he says bēvilus as opposed to bēvilza. Let's ignore that it's the aorist and focus on the fact that it's the subjunctive (just like koston). You use the subjunctive with your main verb when you're hedging—when you're suggesting. Not when you're commanding. Kind of an odd thing to say "We must do this" with the subjunctive. Kind of like saying "Maybe we might considering having to do this".
At this point, his confidence has completely evaporated. Everybody's staring at him like he has no idea what he's talking about; Aemond's eating it up. He knows he's cooked. He's got to say something, though, so he says sētegon which isn't even conjugated. It means "to make" or "to create", which might make sense in English (e.g. "to make war"), but doesn't make sense in Valyrian (a bit like saying "to construct a war" or even "to bake a war") and then tries to pronounce vīlībāzmi "war" (wrong case/number, wrong order) and fails, saying bīlīvāzmi, which means nothing (also he wanted vīlībāzme. Vīlībāzmi is "wars").
Long story short, he doesn't present himself very well—and we didn't even talk about his general pronunciation or intonation. It's kind of a great big mess in only five words. A true disaster.
But if there were no expectation that he should be able to speak Valyrian, none of this would matter! If there were no shame associated with him specifically not being able to speak Valyrian no one would expect it of him, and this challenge would mean as little as someone challenging him to speak the Old Tongue or Asshai'i. It'd be meaningless.
In short, this small portion of this scene is about being a heritage speaker of a language. It's the exact nightmare scenario all heritage speakers fear: To be put on stage and made to perform despite being unequal to the task while simultaneously feeling that they should be equal to it.
It'd be so cool if it was okay to be kind of good with a language—if that level of mastery was acceptable. In the real world, anyway.
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